S3 Series

I'll leave the other name out unless he wants to step forward.

First of all, the other party and I were not quite sure who the CO of the 4th was at this time, hence the group email sent out a few weeks back asking for the emails of each squad/group.

Second of all, at no point did we ever feel that Wild Bill was at all responsible for the "preferential treatment".

Third of all, we didn't approach Wild Bill as the CEO of iEN but rather as someone that we both know (at varying degrees) within the 4th and simply approached him to get his thoughts on whether we should pursue the "preferential treatment" further within the group. At no point did we EVER look at Wild Bill as being the source or responsible for the "preferential treatment".

As for the "preferential treatment", I keep putting it in quotes because I never looked at it as preferential treatment but just as the way things have been done forever within Warbirds, and we were both inquiring on whether it would be worth readdressing the issue.

The issue itself:

For years the 4th has been aligned as an Allied-only group within the S3's. While I can respect that - to a point- it also puts an unfair burden on groups like the 23rd, 352nd, and other Allied inspired FG's in the game. With the largest groups in size being the 4th, 352nd, and 23rd, it has also somewhat forced Jabo into splitting the 352nd and 23rd on opposite sides each and every S3. Given that the 23rd and 352nd have been pitted against each other on opposite sides of every S3 for literally years we felt that has developed bad blood within the two groups when maybe there shouldn't be.

We also felt that after the 31st folded and became the 23rd, that it was unfair to look at them as the same group. That was based on the # of pilots that they lost (along with a few of them being the absolute best sticks in the history of the game) which made it unfair to slot the 23rd as the de facto opponent of the 352nd.

After speaking with Pappyb on TeamSpeak he reminded me the reason that the 4th was Allied-only: Years ago they made a promise to the 4th FG Veterans Association that they would always fly their historical rides within the game.

So my issue is with the 4th's Veterans Association? Any of you that actually know me, know that as President of the 352nd FG Association for two years, it would be impossible for me to not respect the veterans' wishes. After hearing that I dropped it and never pursued it further.

Now that this is out, I ask the following:

1. Wild Bill is immediately back in the 4th. No one ever looked at the 4th as receiving preferential treatment because of Wild Bill. At least my partner and crime and I didn't. Again, we approached him on what we knew was potentially a sensitive subject to get his guidance on whether we should even pursue the issue further within the group. At no time do I feel that we ever implied that Wild Bill was intentionally or unintentionally behind the 4th being Allied only.

2. The 4th attempts to fulfill the wishes of the 4th's Veterans Association. As the past President of the 352nd's Veteran's Association, I understand these issues completely. I feel this can be accomplished by flying Spitfires and P-51's whenever we are within an S3 that involves them in ETO based S3's, and on occasion flying IJ in the Pacific and LW on the Russian front where the 4th was not present (yes I am aware of the 4th & 352nd's Russian shuttle mission and the 4th should be Allied if we ever did that). I feel it would benefit the S3's as a whole and even to a point the 4th by giving them more exposure to LW aircraft for the S3's when they had to go up against them. Just one or two S3's a year of the 4th flying 109's against Yaks or Zeros against Wildcats would relieve a lot of pressure on one or two other groups.

If the answer is still "no" based on their agreement with the 4th FG Association, then I completely respect that.

At no point will - or have I ever - blame/blamed it on Wild Bill. I apologize that this came out of us trying to do the right thing. I hope it can be resolved to all parties satisfaction.

<S>

I posted the above before I saw there was a page 2 of this thread.

No, I was there with you. I agree that this has become a volcanic mountain out of a molehill and I hope we can resolve it.

[Edit - That also goes for the 352nd. I did this along with vslp as members of the S3 community.]

After reading Page 2, I think it is also a good idea that Wild Bill rotate with other groups. However, I think he should not only do it as CEO of iEN, but also as a representative of the 4th. I think it is ridiculous that he is leaving because of this. I would like to see him remain a member of the 4th and fly one or two frames with another group just to get a feel for how others do it. *****

***** If this ever were to come about, every group that he flies with needs to be instructed by their CO's that they are to *NOT* beat him up about Main Arena crap or other such nonsense. If Wild Bill elects to have a post-frame debrief following the frame, it might be a good thing. It also might be a bad thing if groups decide to take it as an opportunity to sling mud with all their gripes about the game, other groups, etc.

I think it would be a good thing if he could offer up what other groups do as a way of enhancing everyone's ability to compete within the S3's.

The drawback to this is that if he were to fly as a guest pilot one or two frames a series, if the 4th were to remain Allied-only then the Axis groups would never have the opportunity to fly with him.

Bottom line, if anything comes out of this my preference is that he stays part of the 4th and we all put this nonsense that the 4th was receiving any kind of preferential treatment behind us. Anything else that happens - or doesn't - is hopefully for the betterment of the S3's.

I would like to emphasize that I do not feel that we put pressure on him for this. At least not intentionally. It was more of an exploratory mission to see if we should take it further.

I agree to a point. If they have an agreement with their veterans association that they not fly Axis ever at the association's request, then I have zero gripes about it. My hope is that the entire situation is clear (without becoming a pain in the ass to the association) and they have a waiver to fly bad guys on a rare occasion in theaters where the 4th was not historically present. If the association still says no then for me the discussion is over.

I also think that because of the politics, I can see why some individuals would not want to fly Axis. I felt the same at first and would hate to do it if we were ever out of our historical rides in an ETO theater. However, ever since we embraced flying as part of the Axis rotation, and by flying our S3 rides in the Main Arena, it has gone a long ways towards our recent success IMO.

Tod....I appreciate your candor and understand very well the weight it puts on the S3 community. Be assured I am trying to get a reading from the current
4th FG Association.
As for my remarks about "Daddy" earlier, When I came aboard the 4th back in 2006, I was made to understand that daddy had left the 4th and formed the 31st for this very reason.
AS soon as I can get an answer from the Association, I will again put it to the group to do as you mentioned and fly axis occasionally when we have series
in theaters where the 4th was not present.
That is the best I can offer right now.

Understood. And maybe it is best that there is one FG in the game that is Allied-only for those pilots who still refuse to fly Axis. If so then I recommend you guys remain that group. If this is going to cost the 4th a single pilot then I recommend business as usual. If the 4th has their own forums or email, feel free to quote me there. If you do, I think everything should be quoted so nothing is taken out of context.

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[Edit - Having said that, my hope is that the 4th.will find a way to take 1 or 2 series a year of non-4th theater action. As for reposting elsewhere, your call but the 4thmen need to know they are NOT being beat up because of this, nor will they be regardless of the outcome.

<S>

Please note that the above approval to quote elsewhere applies to my posts only and posts from this thread only.

Understood and thank you. WILCO.