S3 Series

I couldn't criticize either without at least trying them.

My realistic and humble opinion... meh, six of one and half dozen of the other. Both systems accomplish the same outcome, providing a point in space. I had no trouble using either or keeping mental track of where things were in either case. Mentally using a bullseye is no different than designating a grid cross as an initial reference point. Maybe it's the old SAR ground-pounder in me, but I don't really see any glaring advantage or disadvantage of either system. I think whichever you're used to in real life is what you're probably going to prefer. What actually is a royal PITA is using both at the same time. It just eats up too many finger motions and too much buffer space. By the time I got the position plotted and transmitted, everything completely changed due to their constant zig-zagging. I suggest we pick just one system to use for the axis side as a community. I'll get us started and post a poll at the top of this thread.

Now, for my honest and historical opinion.... both the grid and bullseye systems are rubbish for LW flying. Neither were used in WWII by the Germans, at least as we use them. Grids were used for general map locations, but for somewhat more precise intercept the LW did use radar. However, their technology and tactics were typically lagging behind the allies. Radar sites would normally give the enemy's general bearing and distance from intercepting aircraft's position or nearest town/radar site. What they didn't use was a singe reference point for the entire theater. (aka Bullseye)

If I had my druthers, the axis wouldn't use either system during LW series. We'd instead do some historical homework and simulate what the LW actually had as best we can, in the spirit of the S3. Then do the same for IJA/IJN series. I know it's a big dream. I won't gripe regardless of the system chosen, but don't forget..... there shouldn't be a strict UTM/MGRS here, nor should there be AWACS and F-16s.


I encourage others to post their thoughts here, and hope for an open and civil discussion.

<S>

The 475FG uses what is most effective for the situation.

For daylight raids on Berlin with full GPS available, a Bullseye on Berlin fills the bill.

Other situations warrant other methods but our group will continue to use variations of the Bullseye because both of our normal flight leads are trained aviators that think in terms of compass bearings.

Warbirds grids are entirely without any meaning to ME while compass bearings and ranges translate directly in my brain. And I can do the mental math for intercepts with a compass bearing and range that is IMPOSSIBLE with grid coordinates (unless you can convert WB grids to WB world coordinates and then do arctangents in your head)

It doesn't matter what system is in place, the 475FG will be converting it to our own system tailored for each S3 frame but generally relying on a compass rose somewhere.

And there will be NO GPS coming WITHOUT grid coordinates in the HUD.

Pilots navigate using a compass and "30 miles north of Berlin" is ALWAYS better than "grid X,Y,Z" for the simple reason one requires looking at the map and the other doesn't.

As to historical methods, they require the following.

NO GPS

A dedicated trained GCI for each 2 or 3 formations.

You are correct in stating that a trained GCI giving a vector to intercept is the most realistic and effective.

But we don't have trained GCI. Very few understand how to properly vector for intercept and instead vector into a trail position. It seems simple but very few seem to be able to mentally calculate the angular relationship between target and interceptor, factor in speeds and give a precise vector that will result in a proper intercept.

Guess what? Consistently using a compass rose and range map TRAINS folks to do this very thing. They need the compass rose until they can form that picture mentally. And we need range rings because every WB map is a different scale and grid squares arent actually precisely 10, 20 or 40 miles.

So the realistic method REQUIRES skills honed using the bearing and range position report. A good GCI mentally superimposes a compass rose and range rings over the target and the interceptor, factors the speed and directs an intercept course. In the absence of GCI or effective GCI the good flight lead can take his position and the target position and reported track and calculate course to intercept without too much heads down time.

I won't lie it isn't easy but I think we are already seeing the benefits of the Bullseye on Berlin. Our groups are where they need to be when they need to be and the enemy just isn't. I think the Bullseye provides a tiny edge in Situational Awareness that is proving a big part of the difference in this series.

Here would be my concern with this question and I will let you know for this poll I voted on the grid.

The radial is only being created by an allied squad and may not always be available for the axis side. If iEN implements this as a selectable button from the tower to use either the grid or the bullseye, then I don't see how this can be used when 475th is allied. I won't be creating this for the axis.

If iEN wants to reformat the maps to a control button from tower then we all can change over just by selecting it instead of having to download / save the original just in case I don't like it etc.. etc.. A lot of people who fly the S3 do so because it is fun and may not be computer savvy enough to manipulate files around in the PC or Mac.

I like the idea of the radial but since 2007 when I started playing WB it has been the grid. The concept is easy like dawger has stated and others but I think it needs to be an option in tower to select which system is used when flying axis in the S3, or allied for that matter.

I will gladly create a bullseye map centered on anywhere you like with a few days notice. I am here to support the game in general and will gladly spread the wealth.

The original version of this series map is posted on the General forum with a Bullseye on London to Match the one on Berlin.

If you like it, ask for it and I am more than happy to make it.

see for youre selves guys...it's do as i say .. fly like i say .. speak like i say ..im running this sim...is all im seeing

Maybe after the Christmas holidays we'll see some more input on this subject but for now I certainly would not recommend a mid-S3 change like this based on 7 people voting. The Axis side doesn't have the number of dedicated squad members so we rely on Allied squads rotating in. I really think this would need some discussion amongst all of the squads who fly with us before jumping into it. I know it seems like a real intuitive system for some but there are a lot of long time players who have used the grid system for years and like it so I am sure there will be some resistance to the change. For any change like this we really need a strong buy-in from the people who are going to use it and with rotation taken into account that is all of the S3 squads. Personally, I can use either system and will adapt to what the community wants.

Just my 2 cents worth.

<S>

Radial works for this series but most series do not have an isolated target to work off of and personally I don't want a spiderweb mess all over my map.

To me calling grid and direction is no different than calling radial position. A map is still required and if we want it really simple. Giving compass direction/distance from nearest town, field, and a track is sufficient enough and more like "the real thing". Don't need to get fancy with modern applications. For you historical nutjobs this is what the Luftwaffe actually did.

Excerpts from Stienhoff's diary in Sicily (translated by author):

"Pantechnicons withdrawing. Grid reference two Able two-two King. Steer zero-two-five."

"Odysseus One, pantechnicons twenty miles south of Catania. Your height, please?
Twenty Thousand.
Message received. Alter course for Messina. Watch out for Spitfire escort."

"Pantechnicons approaching beachhead. Crossing coast at Selinunte."

Navigation map from the period:

Maybe that is all you want to see because I certainly don't see that.

Hell, you may be even talking about me. If so I definitely know you are seeing what you want.

Everyone is free to do as they please in the S3 and usually does.

If you don't like the radial system, don't use it.

Besea save your bitching for the main board...no one wants to see it in the S3 board.

If you have nothing to contribute, recommend you just don't type.

Dobs