S3 Series

A Bomber's Perspective
The Axis have now learned something from the Allies. They will seek to do the same thing we did, in my opinion. Most likely, they will try to take back the same targets that we took from them, while hitting the same targets they hit before. Below, we have listed the probable Axis targets and the various Allied Target Combinations that could bring us the most points:

Axis Targets: (Easy targets to strike)
30, 69, 68, 49, 70, 36, 15, 80, 67, 55, 45, 46, 47, 23, 22, 58, 64

Allied Target Combinations: (All depends on number of bombers/bombs/fuel and most importantly, the fighter protection that we get.)
Sortie - 91, 56, 51, 61, 59, 60, 50, 62

Sortie - 44, 43, 42, 41, 21

Sortie - 72, 73, 31, 32, 74, 66, 33, 34

Sortie - 44, 43, 42, 41, 20, 21 (85)

Sortie - 85

We learned that our bombers cannot handle the attacks from the Axis fighters. The bombers are sitting ducks. We'll need to have massive and dedicated protection, if we are to survive.

Thanks,
Darryl <S>

Salute!

Added to Darryl's comments......

Only buffs we'll be flying with the tail gun is the Fort. The Mitchells are toast for simple 6 o'clock attacks.

With the rapidly changing situation that we saw in frame 1, I realize it will be hard for the lites to provide escort. Nevertheless, we gotta work on. Our first half hour went well and the Little Friends were clearly there.

Gums sends...

Maybe, a diversion could be made by taking out radar in the area we aren't going to be hitting. That will make them think we are heading there and they may devote resources in that area? We could climb off radar while the diversion is being created, watch for enemy movement in that direction, then, come into the real target area behind them?

There's one radar at F26 in the south... if it were taken out, they just may believe that we would be preparing to head into the southern targets. We give it a little time, then hit the northern targets?

Just thinking out loud...

I do believe better coordination is needed in Frame 2 when flying into enemy airspace. I watched as a major axis group took off and climbed as the B25s came into enemy territory unescorted. With the very small terrain it is easy for them to cover half their airspace very quickly and if you are at the lower altitudes they have a/c that can climb like a homesick angel to get on you very quickly.

Listen to the donkey. It's a small map and fighters can get almost anywhere is short order. I know you like the early strike stuff, but if you keep going in low you're going to pay the price. They'll keep coming in from almost all compas points, and once our fighters are low we can't do much to protect you with new enema fighters diving into the fight. Remember Darrly they were capping 77 when you guys took off and I could only commit half of our squad due to half having to land for fuel. Altitude and speed mean life for both fighers and bombers. Also if you want support, get the word out on country channel (many times if needed). Honestly we want to help, but the start of the frame didn't reflect orders and if the fighters guess wrong...........oh well. Everyone has to overcome adversity, but not having everyone on the same page: means larger failures.

WILZ, if you are expecting these bombers to get up to 25K and be able to spot the targets in this terrain, it won't happen. The targets aren't easy to spot at 10K. They are small and blend into the landscape. Please tell me how you can provide cover plan for the bomber group that will be flying between 8K and 10K.

The first sortie we all discoed after we closed F72 and F34. The second sortie we hit the majority of the targets that we closed. It was the third sortie that you are referring to, in which F77 was capped. We picked up another 7 points on that final sortie, which is a big part of the 12 point lead we have, currently.

To the best of my memory this is how it went down:
Sortie #1: Closed F72, F34, but had only started hitting F80 (The enemy was being reported as approaching us. Because of the disco, we had to literally create a new mission on the fly because they knew our plan, at that point.)
Sortie #2: Closed F44, F43, F42, F41, F46, F45, F67, F80, F36, F34(2nd time) (We were being attacked over F80 all the way back to F77, but we had excellent fighter cover and virtually no enemy contact for most of the mission.)
Sortie #3: Closed F55, F71 (We were wiped out by about 5 C202s and 109s. It seemed like they did so without much interference. We were getting mauled at F36, but I had already sent the two remaining Nomads off to finish F55. Once it was closed, I asked them try to make it to F71. They were able to reach F71 and close it before being shot down.)

There was only one change to the final orders and it was made clear before we got very far: we were either not going to hit F84 (only 5 points) or hit posts F72, F34, F71, F36, F67, F80(airfield), and Arty F55 for 20 points before returning to base for the next sortie. BEAVER authorized the change that was actually discussed prior to the night. For frame 2, Hey, I'll say it three days before it begins. We must have massive and dedicated fighter support for the complete mission, if we are to make it to the targets that are designated. We were communicating our plans and location. Yes, the plans were changing quickly, but it wasn't done secretly. All I can say is we'll try to increase position communications.

The bombers were able to get to the majority of our targets destroyed in frame 1 because you fighter fellas kept them off us. We just gotta do that again. Don't plan on being somewhere else waiting for us to call you for help. It will be too late (as was the case in sortie #3).

The points that we picked up on the bomber missions would have amounted to a .25 point lead. The 37 points would have edged out the total enemy points by only .25 of a point. The 11.50 point lead we have is because the Allies were able to destroy those 15 Ai C47s. I say this, because we are going to have to do the same thing again in frame 2, if we are to keep ahead of the Axis. We must have massive and dedicated fighter support. The fighters can't be diverted away from us, nor can they be somewhere else waiting to hear if we need help. We WILL need help. Haha.

Perhaps, we'll need to have fighters at high altitude (23rd) and the others very close to us (4th and RCAF). We'll need either the 100th or RCAF to disrupt the enemy and/or find those C47s (.75 points each) again, or find the ships (2.00 points each).

Hope we get started on some plans, soon.

Thanks <S>

Salute!

I have to agree with DR that many tgts are very hard to see, even from 8 - 10K. Just try to find the radar EM a bit east of F84. Not the control building bu the antenna.

Secondly, I really like the idea of repeating our post-reset mission. We had excellent escort, and it showed in the results. In other words, a grand tour. Would be better when we get the Forts due to loadout, but we done good with 6 x 500 pounders to my surprise.

I fully understand how uncomfortable it is for the 'lil friends when the enema can zoom down from the stratosphere. However, would seem to me we could develop a tactic to counter that.

One idea DR presented could be a player. In another series long ago, the buffs played "rope a dope" by entering radar and then scooting out and attacking someplace else. Not sure about actually taking out a DAR, but that could be part of the overall plan.

Our buffs have very long legs this series, so it might even be possible to have a grope of 'lil friends escort us, then fight the enema as we scoot out west and set up for the main event. Our primary escort for the "grand tour" could then join up and we press on down the Yellow Brick Road.

Just some thots from the old geezer.

What say you, Darryl? Besea? et al

Gums sends...

From pervious ops in this terrain (how soon we forget) with this size map and almost full DAR coverage, we were most successful making short, quick stikes at low altitude and running like hell before axis would show up, then have a contingent of fighters up high to ebgage them but again make that a short engagement and run away. We need to take out as many enemy airfields that a close to the front line as possible so as to make their trips longer for them to do whatever.
I highly recommend taking out 84, 81, 85, 91 and if it looks doeable 83. DO NOT let them regain 80. Bomber routes need to be short and not long drawn out or you are sure to take losses. Remember 38's with bombs can take down much and are not as suitable for escort duty unless for some reason you need their legs.

Wilz and Bombr are both correct (my opinion obviously). I understand the problem of visibility with regard to bombers trying to bomb from higher altitude.

Bombers are saying "we can't be effective any higher".
Fighters are saying "we can't be effective starting at such an altitude disadvantage".
Both groups are saying valid things.

Because neither group can accommodate the other, then I think it's logical that we attempt to prosecute something OTHER than a classic bomber/bomber escort type of campaign.

JABO has tossed us a cookie. I'm not quite sure what flavor it is, or from which Girl Scout troop the cookie is from, but I do think we need to figure out, (and heed) his advice/warning.

Better coordination may or may not mean better planning, but rather something much more fluid. Like, "we've got most of their fighters tangled up at location XYZ. Bombers need to try to get to location ABC and take it out while we've got them tied up here"? I don't know. I'm not much at understanding Jaboneese. All I know is that we profit nothing by taking more bases, if we are to continue to offer up our fighter groups as easy pickings. I'm pretty sure the final score for Frame 1 will prove this to be true. Yes, we took twice as many fields, but in the end, it didn't matter because we allowed so many fighters to be killed. Something has to change if we expect a different outcome from the future frames.

Gentlemen:
We must collect more points closing gold properties than the Axis does purple properties, in order to keep pushing the front line to the east. Period. We closed down 80, which was an airfield, but we closed a bunch of outposts/artys to bring us the majority of our points.

We can close airfields, but it will most likely be one per sortie. That will NOT bring us enough points to keep lead, nor keep progressing easterly.

All I am saying is, we need a plan that brings in another 40 points in frame 2.

Take a look at the first post in this thread, again. Surely, from that data we can figure something out. Time is of the essence.

The fact is that we need the bombers to be at 10K for effective bombing campaign. We gotta have fighter COs to come up with a viable plan to protect them.

Does anyone have an idea how they used all their fighter squads, insofar as distributing them around the map in frame 1?

The 352nd upped from F90. They like to up from fields where they can all be together (F90, F6, F4).

There's another 18 fighter pilots we need to worry about (JG51, JG77, TK). With the 352nd, that means 40 fighters looking for our bombers.... ugh.

Night Stalkers will be going after shipping or C47s. That's what they do.

Knights will be hitting everything along the front line, just like we did. Expect to see 30, 70, 36, 80, 67, 55, 45, 46, 47, 22, 23, 58, 53 being closed this frame. So, I would think we'd better figure out a way to stop them. It only takes one bomber to close 2 of those posts. So, if we allow them to get to the targets, they will close them. Best part of this is they are saying the same thing about us in their planning.

Let the planning begin... haha.

<S>