S3 Series

<S>
My AAR from another topic:

Thanks for COing the frame, sir.

I think we supressed the 109's and 190's quite well. The Me 163's however were near impossible to catch. I tried to dive on them from 10000 ft advantage several times, but couldn't get within d8 and then they ran away from me. Each Me 163 could get several passes on the buffs, and only the buff guns could deal with them. Our fighters seemed unable to catch them and I think we lost large numbers of buffs to the 30 mm cannon armed jets this frame. We probably need input from all fighter pilots of how to deal with the swarm of jets in frame 5 so they don't have free reign among the buffs.

The B-17's were pretty much flown at the highest altitude they could get, so wouldn't be surprised if they were mushing through the air near stall speed. On the ingress in frame 5 it's maybe better to have the buffs fly at 2000 ft less than in frame 4. This so that the buffs can easier keep together. When the buffs are spread all over then the escorts are constantly second guessing on which buff to cover and where to be positioned. If you cover one buff pilot then you are of no help to the others. If trying to stay between the spread out buffs then you're always going to be a second to late to stop the bandits before they reach the buffs.

Also on the egress once all hell has broken lose, and the buffs are flying back home divided... buffs please give constant location reports so that our fighters can find and escort you. Especially if you are one of the tail end charlies due to a dead engine etc. The 4th FG was pretty much about to land at end of frame, as the buffs we followed were safe, unaware that there were still 2-3 buff pilots enduring attacks in enemy territory. We want to escort until end of frame, just need to be vectored to you big buffers .


<S> and otherwise great job all! It was a fun frame for sure.
Robert

4th FG AAR MOB Frame 4

4th rolled T+0 from F24 and climbed NW towards 26. With the buff group a great deal above us we flipped and took a course S to the 4 line, then East. We leveled out about 20k and caught the buff group near the 5,4,x. We zoom climbed up to escort alt of 34-38k and settled in.

Approx 120 miles from Berlin, the first enemy planes were spotted. As we got closer to Berlin, the enemy activity intensified. The 190's and 109's were not too difficult to deal with and we dispatched several. The 262's with their great speed were difficult, but manageable to, if not engage, at least drive away from the buff group. A few Me262's were killed by buffs and I believe one 4thman got a kill on one. I hit one in an engine and it dove away. I gave chase down to 12k but could not keep up even after it only had one engine.

The real difficulty was the 163 Komet. We were unable to engage them in any meaningful way. Even when I was in a good position, they still were able to sneak up and blow past me before I had time to react. I never even fired at one. I think the only way to deal with them is with a very tight bomber formation. A tight formation will make them cautious about collisions. And it will keep our fighter cover concentrated over the buffs rather than spread out.

All in all an extremely fun night. I did get two kills, both 190's. Thanks to Wildbill for finishing off the second one for me!

S

My observations

I think the change in the number of lives in the S3 has change the dynamic of the ETO play. Allied fighters on deep raids cannot take advantage of the change in lives while the Axis can pop up 3 times. When they die they can lift off from a field in advance of the BUFFs. Surviving is sort of a disadvantage. So on my abacus that gives them a ~3:1 advantage in numbers.

ME 262s and ME 163s only compound the issue.

I concur all that has been mentioned, I can only comment at length concerning the second BG which I was supposed to lead. I say supposed as it seems many buff drivers had problems keeping formation due largely to overheating engines that lost power. The second group were unable to contribute as much to the overall destruction of ground targets as might have been hoped. It also made them easier targets as we became separated and spread out, especially the 163 Komet which cleverly finished my AI's before destroying me. I must admit to being surprised the Komet was able to make as many passes with such a limited fuel and ammunition load, but in the hands of an 'experten', everything is possible!

I cannot understand how BG1 manged to stay together and ours didn't given we were following the same routing, same targets, same speeds but I haven't heard from the others so can not offer an explanation. I absolutely agree that whilst the friendly fighters did a brilliant job with the piston powered planes and 262's (I don't recall seeing 1 of those), the 163's were an altogether different problem. Bomber formations are strongest when tight together and this is what we have to practice if we are to survive.

The comment about 3 lives vs 1 life is valid, especially if you can jump into a 163 3 times, that definitely gives a huge advantage. I don't know for sure how many 163's were encountered in RL and perhaps those should be limited in the same way the number of available 262's were.

Still immersive and I'll give it another early morning go this weekend!

<S> to the CO's/organisers.

--
352nd Fighter Group AAR

Gentlemen,

352nd lifted from field 24 and headed south to gain altitude with 108 gallon drop tanks.
This was a one sortie mission and we wanted no chance of being knocked out by time or fuel leaks.

Upon rendezvous near field 51 toward 47 we continued climb forward and up to 37k.
1/2 from our front lines to target we dropped 1 tank and climbed to 39k.
On or around 15 miles from initial target call outs of a single enemy in buffs.
We turned north and back to id enemy. 1 was sighted and then 2 that had the tell tale signs of a delta tailless 163.
At that moment I knew we where within 15 miles of the 163 base (suspecting 92 because of size).

Having told my boys that they are out of gas when you see them......... 1 was latched onto by a 487th squadron mate and it dove.
Unfortunately the P-51 pilot pulled a wing off at high speed and G force.
I kept my eye on the dot low knowing he was about to slow down drastically because of no thrust, the idea being to not loose sight.
Within 10 seconds at 4k he dropped to approximately 260mph and make a slow left turn. I pulled 1/4 inch lead at d2 and fire a 1/4 second burst and he blew up loosing a wing and other vital parts.

Climbing back to alt I noticed that field 92 was on the vector of my prey and stated to the Group that 92 was most probable the 163 base.
Watching and listening to the calls and encounters I would put effectiveness of 163 at 25%. This is due to only 2-3 pilots being able to control fuel state and good angles on buffs.
Probable minimum of 2-3 lost due to collision, 1-2 lost to buff gunners, I saw 1 do a very good job of attacking making 3 passes.
This particular one (when completing 3rd pass) I knew he was without fuel and he dove straight down. I made a 45º angle to field 92 as I watched him dive and kept my eye on him.
At 2k we were 5 miles from the base and he slowed to 250mph and stayed straight, I was closing too fast and pulled throttle and dropped 10º of flaps, at D2 I started to fire and he turned left. Only 1 ping registered on the right wing. He slowed to 190mph in maneuver and I dropped 35º flap and followed, I got a d2 20º deflection shot and he blew up.

During various other encounters, I was able to get pieces of 2(?) 163s on or near field 92. I would state that a norm of 10% ammo from P-51D all banks will destroy an Me-163 hitting any area at 10% hit rate, i.e., 3 to 4 shells and she go BOOM inside of D3.

Were I axis I would use Me-262s in a much larger capacity next encounter. I believe they are not happy with 163 results and our eval of effectiveness is overblown.

AAR complete

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Evals,

For frame 5, suggest if we are in 4 engine buffs we approach the target away from the LARGEST field in the area. Such as, if it were Berlin again we arrive from 15-20 miles south/south east instead of directly over a large base that can accommodate BJs. This will shorten the 163 fight time even more during ingress.

Also, Me-262s in the right hands are a much greater threat for a much longer period. Tight buff formations and VERY aggressive 2 man attacks on Jets are a must. Keeping eyes on -- no matter the distance-- is vital. It is a rare pilot who can use these weapons well. ANY climb by a BJ is near suicide. If one begins an encounter above 300mph indicated will give you the ability to cut the angle and give a high probability of pings out to D9.
Following ( DIRECT POINTING AT AN EMEMY) is foolish at best. Keep your eye on him and cut the angles you see, if he is turning right cut 30º right harder and keep your eye on him, (NEVER take your eyes off him), if he starts a climb, which is usually way too steep (45º or more) then slowly angle from 40º to 75º and put him on the side he is favoring (i.e., he leans right put him on the left of your front canopy to KEEP EYES ON), when he stops climbing he will be at or near 280mph at best and if you guessed well he will also be continuing his lean/turn and wham he is about to be closed on by a 220mph P-51 at D7. Angles are more important than speed.

Speed is only good if the enemy is able to control it. Most can't. Get a long range ping and watch him kill himself.

Suggested
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Juice

Boost 1 runs for 105 minutes. The mission route was less than 130 minutes with 61% fuel and 12 500lb bombs. There was a cool down period at ~ T-28 to T-32. The balance of the mission should have been at boost 1. The only way to damage the engines was not cooling it down at the specified time or engines were at boost 2. I flew this route twice without engine overheating.

BUFFs should be flown in the bombardier's position using roll, throttle, and climb speed to maintain position. Trailing bombers should cut the corners in the route plan. BUFFs should carry the same fuel and bomb loads.

Launch plan was not followed stringing out the BUFFs at the start. Maybe more turns would solve the trailing BUFFs issue. Please advise.

Ohshix, I believe some buff pilots may have (inadvertently) used the second wep setting at least for some of the time, to try and catch up or remain on station. I haven't de-briefed anyone to find out exactly, this is pure conjecture and in no way a criticism. I didn't overheat and managed a slow climb to 30K, once level found that nearly all my group were trailing behind and unable to move faster because of damaged engines. I couldn't slow too much although I tried until the stall warning sounded enough to force a higher speed. I couldn't turn as we were heading straight to the first target although perhaps I could have scissored/s-turned a bit, I'll know for next time, if there is one!

I know some pilots were having trouble setting the fuel loads to 61% although I'm not sure why. Is it possible to set the fuel automatically so pilots don't need to worry if they set it too high or low. Another observation: I had 2 AI's, some had 3, can we ensure we all start with the same, it would at least give us one more option if taken out.

Using dog-legs to enable stragglers to catch up is a double-edged sword as it might give longer for nme aircraft to attack. Historically, most flights paths were pretty straight with a few turns for escort RV. We have to be a little more canny (intelligent, proactive, inciteful) about the flying and learn how to fly formation throughout. Unfortunately we don't often get practiced at this because there are precious few of us in the main arenas. The most I've flown with recently is 2 others with 1 AI a piece. These have not been long and arduous flights, nor at altitude so perhaps no wonder we are not well disciplined in these events.

I agree about the 262 vs 163, most of us seemed to be downed by those horrid little rocket ships, I didn't see a 262 at all. The escorting fighters had no real chance to protect the second groups as we were so spread but full marks to them for trying. The first bomber group saw more action I believe, to judge from the bandit call-outs. We were our own worst enemies because of a loose formation and engine management issues. Lets see what can be done next event, I believe the bombers should remain as one group throughout, at least be much, much closer together.

Phil

Lead should probably only fly 100t or 95 t with no boost until all buffs are formed up tight. Stragglers then have boost 1 or 100 t to catch up.
Any fuel setting lower than 61 % will auto select 61 % HOWEVER any fuel setting ABOVE 61 will set it for whatever the pilot chose.
Identical bomb and fuel loadouts help in keeping station as throttle settings will effect ac all the same.
There may be connec slide show issues with everyone all in one large group but a 1 min separation might be close enough.
We did engage in some tac turns when attacked by jets since they come in so fast to throw off their aim, but the downside to that is your not manning your guns, only flying the airplane. The only way to be sure was to constantly cycle thru your gun positions eyeing black dots out there watching for the really fast movers and then stay in your gun for a good solution when they did attack. Away from the pilots position then for a min or two can get you out of formation, then your back to flying the airplane and not manning your guns. Meanwhile the ip point is coming up, you gotta get greened up, assign targets, all the while reporting positions. Constantly going to ext view to check our bomber position in the formation, back to pilot, cycle thru guns, cannot view other bombers from the bombsight....your really a lot busier than others might imagine.
It does take a fair amount of experience etc to be able to pull a constantly tight formation off at all times......all the while your taking damage, losing your ai, someone loses an engine and the whole group must decide to throttle back? Stay at speed? Engine fires must dive to put fire out and then ?
Oh yeah....gotta keep and eye on the buffer constantly to respond to Buffs, whats your position?
Even for highly experienced Joe's its fairly hard.....

Not easy to be a BUFF driver for sure.