S3 Series

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All Allied bomber pilots and Axis interceptor pilots, please share your opinions in this thread what you think about bomber toughness. The B-24's and B-17's, the toughest bombers in Warbirds, are currently up against the hardest hitting fighters of WW2, armed with 30 mm cannons and 4x 20 mm cannons. How is the balance? To tough, to fragile, just right? Also how is the balance of bomber toughness in the Legacy Arena? Opinions from as many pilots from both sides of the series as possible is most welcome!

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/Robert

After participating in the three recent S3 events flying in a B24 I have noticed a speed challenge. Some have a hard time staying up with the pack or lead plane. I for one have set my plane to %100 power while the lead plane claims he is as %95 and yet I still have to use a power boost to get back in line at times. Could it be because there is a prop wash modeled into the game? All planes were all set with the same weight loads so this is why I ask. Thanks. -tote-

<S> sir!
The sim has no propwash effects affecting other planes in the vicinity. The issue with your plane being slower might be because the engine horsepower (hp) setup works in increments of 1000 ft in Warbirds. This means that your flightmodel has, say, 1200 hp between 18000-18999 ft, 1220 hp between 19000-19999 ft, and 1240 hp between 20000-20999 ft etc.

As such if your leader is flying at 21200 ft, and you are flying at 20800 ft, and the engine still has it's full throttle height (FTH) at a higher altitude than you both are flying, then his engines will be able to produce more horsepowers than your engines, even if you both are using the same throttle. Also his plane being at a higher altitude means his plane will experience less drag due to lower air density. The result is his plane holds a faster speed than yours.

If the FTH of the engine on the other hand is at, say, 20000 ft, the engine will then lose power rapidly above this altitude with every 1000 ft mark. If he is then flying at 21200 ft and you at 20800 ft, then your engine will produce more horsepowers than his engine at the same throttle.

* The speed of the B-24 Liberators increases with altitude up to 25000 ft (their FTH), above this altitude their speed drops rapidly.
* The B-17 Fortresses have their best speed between 25000-35000 ft, but above 35000 ft (FTH) it drops rapidly.





I can't say if this applies to your situation but it could be the explanation.
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Robert

It's a good question, Robert, and like all questions related to aircraft performance, survivability and toughness it will provide endless arguments and debates. Footage of allied bombers from (gun) cameras do show bombers taking an incredible amount of flak(sic) and still continuing to fly. Images of returning bombers missing huge amounts of their structures are, I'm sure, indelibly burned into many people's minds.

I'm guessing the damage model for all WB aircraft is somewhat simplified and constrained by programming. Simply increasing the "toughness" in specific areas might help but guessing again, I also assume toughness is for the whole aircraft and not just one particular part. As always, it's a question of balance; make the bombers behave like armoured titanium and impossible to down, people will not bother. Conversely, make the fighter uber tough and the buff pilots will give up. You won't win.

It seems reasonable atm, I do get frustrated when "little tweaks" are made and what was once possible, now isn't. Maybe toughness is altered in the S3's and toned down in the main arenas but I'm sure that would cause a huge furore and likely be impossible from a programming pov.

The last S3 I participated in, (Sunday 9th Feb, MOB), it took 3 passes from 190 from behind and one screaming frontal assault to take me out. It was quite impressive to watch. Certainly the rear attacks could or should have resulted in more damage to the attacking aircraft given the vastly slower closing speeds and the number of guns trained on them. In reality attacks from the rear were not done that often for that reason and it was a little disheartening to see a fighter closing in and not being stopped. My AI's didn't seem to help that much either! And as an aside, I could not jump to one of the AI's once in a dive despite right and left clicking like a lunatic. If this facility has been removed, it does make me think about joining other S3 missions since I can only continue as an attached "gunner" and secondly with the lead aircraft going, 3 bombers are lost. This gives a clear advantage to the attackers to concentrate on the piloted planes as for every one shot, 2 more will disappear. This was not just me who experienced this problem so no wonder the stats indicate a poorer result in bombing.

A few more comments than perhaps you asked for and just an opinion...

I do have one question regarding the lights out at the end. I was the last B24 in the air and approaching base 107 in a slow turn at 200ft to land when the lights went out (Night Mode). Not knowing what was going on I tried to pull out of my turn at 90mph and crashed. This made me a bit upset. Is there a reason we end S3 events this way? I was in my last AI after the first two were shot down with no fighter escort and had a good mission up until the lights went out. LOL -tote-

Thanks for the 'Prop Wash" reply Robert. Makes sense to me now. -tote-

What I observed as a crappy allied escort, was that the LW were making very good slanted attacks and taking out buffs. The problem I saw is if one enemy flew by the group, every gun trained on that plane allowing all others to attack without being targeted. That has always been the case for the AI gunners I believe. Once targeted they wont change targets till the first is out of range.

Also, the buffs tend to be "disabled" relatively easily. if a rudder is hit, it gets knocked off and not just partially disabled. Same with elevators and ailerons. I am sure that would be impossible to program into WB but is a issue. War footage showed lots of buffs come back with half rudders or elevators. This is also a huge problem with the P38.

Just my 2 cents.

the "Lights out" at the end of S3 frames is a way of ensuring both sides disengage and RTB. Without it a player could continue attacking enemy aircraft (e.g. LW chase unescorted buffs back to their bases in the UK or Allied fighters vulch enemy airfields) well past the time the janitors expected combat to cease. That was a problem waaay back at the start of the S3s, forcing Jabo to implement the lights out.

Ref disabling buffs "relatively" easily, the damage model is all or nothing. There is no graceful degradation of performance as as surfaces soak up damage. No increase in drag, loss of lift, no stiffness in the controls or loss of control authority. Everything works at 100% until it falls off. That is to a player's advantage as they can continue in combat longer. Not realistic, though. MAJOR code changes would be required to incorporate that type of damage model.