S3 Series

Jabo,

Can those that fly bombers fly fighters during Frame 3?

Hawk, from the rules regarding Bomber AI Wingmen.
From the rules (in Black)
Plus cat’s thoughts/interpretations in red:

9. AI drones - every player that uses an eligible bomber in a frame may take up to 3 wingman with their lead aircraft.
To do so they must use the bomber\GV login so they can jump between their drones making them more effective and immerse.
Cat’s opinion, I take this to mean better defensive firepower, more bombs (although AI wingmen drop when you drop) and a better chance of survival.
All bombers both player flown and AI will have the same damage strength and count the same as regards to points.
It is best to keep your AI with you and not have them attack targets as they are prone to get lost and then are easy targets for enemy aircraft.
Proper formations need to be flown while using these AI drones. For take-off it is recommended to put your AI in trail as close as possible so they don’t wander.
Cat’s interpretation, Jabo want proper formations, not “hold my AI wingmen back to the fight so I can switch back to them or use them to retreat.
Just my opinion, it’s too gamey and should be left in the CA arena or the Main arena, not the S3s.
After you are airborne the minimum distance between AI is 100 ft.
Players need to be aware of their AI when running formations and try and not stack them against each other.
Using slightly different altitudes helps in this overlapping. Any formation deemed to be too clustered will be asked to shake out their separation a bit.
With lag and such it is difficult but please try and make your formation look as realistic as possible. All bombers and strike aircraft may take drones.
Bomber pilots that wish to use the old system simply have to login using the fighter login and select the number of wingmen they want, 0 to 3.
Using this system when you die you are finished for the night and cannot jump to your AI wingmen.



So there is is.
Again, I don’t know what Spin said, I don’t have time to look for it.
If you could find it that would help.
The CA may not meant to work in the S3 the way it would normally.
The 300’ rule is only for switching to your AI, not for formations or “holding patterns”.

So, give it some thought. Switching to TOT may be the answer.

In regards to fighters in a bomber squadron, it was never hashed out in the rules as far as I know.
It will have to be addressed now which will be a good thing.
A certain percentage every frame of FB groups must fly bombers in order to keep their FB status?
I don’t know.
For this frame as well as the remaining frames if the Knights fly only fighters the Allies have no offensive capabilities as none of the fighters can carry ordnance.
Jabo will have to come with something.
Next series it may be all AI bombers or allow fighter squadrons a pick of ground attack aircraft.

This you interpretation and not what I take from it. You call it gamey (not surprised) and I call it tactics. What you don't understand is that our numbers are shrinking. WE DO NOT have enough bombers to close a base with what we have.

So, remove the CA arena until a ruling from Jabo comes out exactly how it is to be used.

I don't have a post from Spindz, this was discussed over lunch one day.

We get points for closure, not TOT unless that is the purpose of the frame. You can get up in your little plane and fly around and shoot people down. We up in a bomber,fly for a long time in hopes to be able what we do best and that is close fields.

JABO, sets the rules, not us and we are not to interpret them by comply. If this is what Jabo wants, let him clarify the rules and we follow it.

That’s why I’m saying damage done by both players and their AI wingmen needs to be evaluated, and that can’t happen if bomber players don’t try to do it that way.
Jabo can switch to TOT at that point for medium and heavy bombers.
It’s Jabo’s sandbox and his rules on AI management looked pretty clear to me.
You were trying to do something not in the S3 rules.
Gamey is neither a good word or bad. The idea that you can hold a bomber in reserve holding pattern was never done in WWII.
Bombers went in together for mutual defense and target saturation (TOT).
We can argue on that one all day bud, but If Jabo says to keep your AI with you in formation then I have to agree with him.


Some players are using it and like it. If you don’t want to use the CA then log in as you used to.
Don’t use the CA log in if it doesn’t work for you. That was also said many times.
So there is no need to turn it off.


Can you contact him again and ask for better written information?


As numbers dwindle (or increase) different ideas and methods of gameplay have to be evaluated.
Even if you had twice your numbers, I think the idea of a wingman that you can switch to is a great idea.
There were many times I would have loved to have it back in the day when I would get almost to target (after flying for over an hour) when some 190 would blow me away.
I’m very aware of what it takes to be a bomber pilot both in the Main arena and the S3s.


I thought, “It is best to keep your AI with you and not have them attack targets as they are prone to get lost and then are easy targets for enemy aircraft.
Proper formations need to be flown while using these AI drones. For take-off it is recommended to put your AI in trail as close as possible so they don’t wander.”
was very clear and part of the confusion on what was going wrong was we all though you were doing just that (keeping your AI with you)
Hence a lot of time was spent trying to figure what the problem was.
I’m not sure how sending AI off into a holding pattern complies with the rules as set by Jabo.

I repeat, going by what Jabo is saying, keep your AI wingmen with you in formation, drop your bombs as best as able,
switch to your wingmen if your plane is going down. Only then can we go to Jabo and say that we need TOT.
In case sir, we’ll do without bombs this frame and hopefully things will get sorted.
Either Spin will make it work your way in the S3 (as long as that’s what Jabo wants) or we will go on with what we have.

Get some practice in that Fokker D20!

Hawk its your squad you can split them up anyway you want. Please note that the Allies have won the first two frames so changing tactics now may not be the wisest course.

Hawk if you do not like the CA please go back to the old way of playing. Its your option. Some pilots do like the CA login and it works for them but that doesnt mean it works for everyone. We now have the option to choose so that is always good.

From the rules

9. AI drones - every player that uses an eligible bomber in a frame may take up to 3 wingman with their lead aircraft. To do so they must use the bomber\GV login so they can jump between their drones making them more effective and immerse. All bombers both player flown and AI will have the same damage strength and count the same as regards to points. It is best to keep your AI with you and not have them attack targets as they are prone to get lost and then are easy targets for enemy aircraft. Proper formations need to be flown while using these AI drones. For take-off it is recommended to put your AI in trail as close as possible so they dont wander. After you are airborne the minimum distance between AI is 100 ft. Players need to be aware of their AI when running formations and try and not stack them against each other. Using slightly different altitudes helps in this overlapping. Any formation deemed to be too clustered will be asked to shake out their separation a bit. With lag and such it is difficult but please try and make your formation look as realistic as possible. All bombers and strike aircraft may take drones. Bomber pilots that wish to use the old system simply have to login using the fighter login and select the number of wingmen they want, 0 to 3. Using this system when you die you are finished for the night and cannot jump to your AI wingmen.

If those are using the CA by keeping them together, it shows by the lack of close fields.

If we used it the way you all are wanting us too, we would not have been able to close the fields as we did in Frame 1 and 2.

Our results speak for themselves and we want to be able to gain as much points as possible for our side. So I will ask my people and see what they want to do. If we do not use the CA, don't expect us to be able to close fields with only 2 or 3 bombers. Seems to me a waste of time and effort to those who work hard in planning these events.

We up with a purpose and damn good at it. If we can't use the settings like they are suppose to (depending who you ask) then what good are we to the team.

Give it a good mull over Mr. Hawk.
This frame take a break from bombing and give the Fokker D20 a whirl.
This frame dfinately plan on it. At this late stage I don't want to come up with a plan, or escorting bombers with Fokkers.
They probably couldn't kep up with any bombers anyway
Sometimes it helps to break away from the norm to give you a different perspective.
We all gotta try and keep warbirds going anyway we can.

Jabo, if you come back to this thread, any chance the Allied fighter squadrons might be able to upgrade to a weak fighter that can carry bombs?
Say for frames 4 & 5?
Even just a few for killing tanks would be welcome.

I think we are missing the point of The Battle of France. Stuka air support was a major issue to allied troops. Allies had medium bombers and Fairy Battles to attack the important bridges in the German breakthrough areas.

Shooting down bombers scored the allies half their points last frame. Its an important thing to do and was a focus of the Allied airforces in the Battle of France. They actually shotdown many Luftwaffe bombers because the Germans sent them in on many tactical strikes often in small numbers and unescorted.

I quoted the rules so that you can see though it would be recommended to follow these suggestions it is not mandatory. The CA bomber login and use of AI does have some bugs and I am hardly the expert on how to use them best. But by watching over the past 3 events I have seen so good use of Ju87s and B25s down on the deck but in a tight formation staying above 300ft. Just trying to help the guys unfamiliar with this type of AI use that we have really only seen in the CA arena.

We are running out of bomber and strike pilots so splitting them into two sides like this event makes it hard to get a good formation going.

Splitting the bombers into 2 sides is definitely an issue.
There doesn't seem to be a good solution for that other than to try and recruit more pilots into the two opposing bomber groups.
It's a double edged sword.
As for ground attack groups, one idea would be to provide each fighter squadron with a few ground attack fighters.
Give them the option, in a limited way, to pick up ground attack missions.
From what I saw in the main over the last few days the numbers are coming up a little.
I think we can do without the bombers for the rest of this series and give the Knights a break and time to give it a good think.

As for the CA, should get together with Spin and Sleepy and try to s what can be done about it.
I think it's the future, ben if the numbers come up.
We'll focus on bomber killing after this frame

Another option might be to allow a ftr designated squad to be assigned to bombers for a frame if they desire and are needed for balance. 4th flew B-25s awhile back and did just fine but agree on doing it before hand so they can get some practice.