S3 Series

Who said, " Any airplane that can't be seen by the attacking ground forces is a wasted piece of equipment and gotten rid of".

This essentualy was the Russian air/ground stratigy of WWII. All their tactics and aircraft designed were based on this premise.

My observation was we all used western tactics and as a result our attackers got slaughtered with out much support and we didn't close any fields ( one exception ) that were of prime value. Our fighter survival rate especialy in the too large groups was great. Though the axis rate was even better. Our fighter tactics were to fly around in big sweeping (useless ) formations while the axis took down our attack planes and the others simply sat higher and picked us off over usless airspace (above 20,000 ft.). In the end all these yaks were pretty useless for ground attack having no bombs or targets at 25,000 ft.

I believe if we would have all gone in low, 15000 ft and down and most of our fighters with fighter/bomber capability and bombed the targets similtanious with our attack groups thus defending them as well. The axis would have had to come down where our fighters are superior in performance as well as had the ability to get above them in a fight would have been beat up badly. Also we probaly would have come out of it with several bases closed.

On the bomber side I heard complaints about lack of fighter support. An argument that permiated WWII. But then the bombers were reliving one of the greatest mistakes bomb groups did in WWII. Repeatedly attack the same target, Again and again and loitering in the area. Once you create a pattern the defence can concentrate on you and give you unacceptable loss. Examples are Schweinfurt over Germany or LinbackerII B52 missions the first three days in Vietnam.

Guess what im saying is I see a pattern emerging and believe if we don't think more like Russians of that day and changing our stratigy were going to get our butts kicked.
Just my opinion, bases on history.

Tactical fighter doctrine. Get in, Hit them hard, Get out. Ask Wildbill he was tac air. And for heaven sakes don't loiter around discussing it till your in the club on the ground.
They know all to well, they,ve been there.

Bluzoo.
4 TFS, 388 TFW, Hill AFB Utah. F16.

That's more or less what I did.

Rolled a PE2, climbed to at 16,000ft. and shadowed the DR to F21
Went in just after explosions started on ground and did some dive bombing with 4x 500 lbs.
Couldn't get near the dish radar to finish despite a couple of attempts because there was still a persisnt ack right next to it
(despite both the DR dropping bombs on the radar and the 2 x 500lbs that I threw down on the area afterwards.)

RTBd low level to 32 and took off again for 141.
Dropped bombs and strafed stuff down.

RTBd to 32 and was killed on short finals just before touch down..
2 pings followed by a collision from behind from 109 that overcooked his bounce took my clean off stab and I crashed from 100ft into the runway
He flew away unharmed of course.


NOW ive looked at it, there is just one 40mm next to the radars
not sure how that survived when the radars around it were destroyed by DR bombs and I also dropped 2 x 500lbs next to it
Not familiar with damage/hardness in use.

Salute!

True, 'zoo.

Our band of Nomads tried to exploit the capabilities of the light bombers provided to us by the capitalist pigs. They are poorly suited for low level "jabo" missions. Added to this, rules prohibit us from attacking many targets, so even the nimble Mossie planes are at a disadvantage.

So we decided to come in above 8,000 feet to avoid the 40 mm acks, or at 14K if there were 88;s in the tgt area. Worked like a charm on both missions Frame 2, and even the one in Frame 1. Our goal was to take out the 88's to enable the light strikers to survive. We did that.

As far as help from our Little Friends, I gotta admit that our coordination was not up to standards. More on our AAR. Both frames we died from enema lites, not the acks.

!!!!!! Ditto on the buffer flame wars using country channel when a frame is in progress. So CO forum shall see some discussion about this, I am sure. Sometimes that buffer commo is more important than Team Speak, and we gotta keep it "clean" !!!!!!!!

We have some time to think and re-evaluate, much as 7th/13th AF did after first three nights of Linebacker II.

Comrade Gums sends...

EDIT: Nomads came back for second mission and finished off the DAR complex at F21, and planned to come back to help close. Got bounced on egress and were picked off one by one.

P.S. I checked out the initial 4th cadre in 1980 in the Viper Was never attached to them, but flew with 16th, 34th and 421st until the end. END EDIT

From my own standpoint ( flying a lite) We upped, ( from 2 different airfields) formed up, moved straight out to 193/21 area...straight in......heavies were in on port 21 before we could even get there, with us arriving just in time to scrape off enma lites off the survivors. It seemed that way all night long, we could not get into a covering position of the heavies at any point, with guys getting over target whilst we still 20 mile or better away.
Guess we just led with our chin this frame.

Not an fair plane matchup for sure. Clouds dont do much for bringing the fight down low and we have maxed out the number of layers without messing with FPS. Both the LW and VVS formed large groups and basically ran into each other early on. B25s and Ju88s were lost but the 109s with their advantages wore down the VVS fighters making play later in the frame impossible. It may make sense to spread out the attacks and conduct operations like Bluzoo has commented on. Not an easy series by any means for the VVS and the numbers advantage is not as large as it should be.

SPYS? You notice how 352nd was in the southern region from the start? Luckey/or fore warned..... Loose lips sink ships.


How cool gumms. Might have crewed your plane. Went Germany after and helped introduce C model there. Later iin 86 pulled back into 4th/388 by DCM request, where I finished my career.
Lotta hard work, time away from family, excitment and pride proving what it could do and spanking other units for underestimating the plane. (Was know as cheap lightweight ) untill one after another we dominated them. Great pilots in the early days with lot of stick time and unbeatable combo in that plane, much like yourself I imagine.

127 VVS never got above 2,500', went low to 141 several times when we were on the 2nd hop, a 109 came in and was dispatched by Wildcat. We got no warning of the 15+ Axis heading to 141 until they were already there. That was then end of us for the night.

Gumms/ or any other dedicated bomber group CO.

Upon discussions with besea- over last couple days, ( Besea #3 CO ) It came to my attention he did not know exactly what the bomber limitations were. It might be very useful for you all to contact him for the purpose of this education. He is taking this awefull seriously and has already started with the sleepless nights over the issues.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++

Also I am finding the S3 chart does not necessarily coinside with the actual attack points a bomb has if 500 lb or bigger. I think someone has messed withthe settings and most bombs are terribly neutered. That must be so frustrating to fly a volnerable bomber all the way and penetrate to the target only to find his """" 2000 """"" Thats two thousand pound bomb doesnt take down the taret as indicated in the charts. Im wondering if anyone is working this issue. Tonight I tested a 2000 lber on a variaty of targets with these results. I think tomarrow with try it in actual S3 areana to see if same.
2000 lb GP bomb has 3750 attack points as shown on S3 Ordanance table 2 chart. After test will let Jabo know but thought it would be of intrest to all of you for planning.
........................S3 OT Damage points.
CO Ready room (850)........destroyed.
AD Ammo dump(1500).......intact.
RD Radar EM....(1250)........intact.
RS Radar stn....(1800)........intact.
HG Hanger.......(2500)........intact.
CB CARRIER.....(200)..........intact.
ET Barracks.....(3000).........destroyed.
All of these targets should have gone down after being hit. Only two did.
Conclusion: Either the 2000 lb GP bomb has been neutered from chart settings, or the settings on these hard targets have been manipulated higher than chart standard.

My attack run at 21 went like this.

Wait for DR bombs to explode at radar site on top of hill to south.

Dive in, released 2 x 500lbs on remaining radar targets

Crossed over to north side of valley, dropped 2 x 500lbs on single 88 ack on top of hill there.

Reversed and strafed same single 88 on northern hill top ( it still didn't go down I think)

Dove down to valley floor and staffed 88mm just to west of 21 proper (didn't go down)
Climbed southern side and saw dish radar on hill still intact

Tried to stafe it several time but there was still the 40mm next to it plugging away at me so couldnt get near.

I'm not actually sure that I destroyed any targets at 21 at all.

I might not have delivered bombs in a pickle barrel but close enough to take out acks I would have thought.
Plus with secondary strafing from a mossie

Will find out when posted results.

Salute!

Yeah, we noticed the far end 88 down on the ridge, and took out the other 3 as we had planned.

Second go we finished off the DAR complex using 2 x 1000 per tgt. At our alt, the 40 mm ack was a non-player.

It's better to use 2 x 1000 from different planes than one 2000 pounder.

More later,

Gums sends...