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FRAME 2 CO AAR
http://squadselectseries.com/s3forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1068		 Page 1 of 4
Author:  bollok [ Mon Dec 15, 2014 4:43 am ]
Post subject:  FRAME 2 CO AAR
Thanks to all for team effort.
Its a looong way to the target and relatively easy for the LW to lie in wait an line us up.

Hopefully we at least got a decent amount of ORD down on the german capital compared to last time out.

Credit to the brave bomber guys, saw you get a few kills from your gunners.
Seems like you got the worst of it on your way out.

Finally I hope at least everybody saw some action and had fun.
Even if you didn't make it home.
>S
Author:  Hawk [ Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: FRAME 2 CO AAR
Bollok,

Only a hand full of us made it to the target. Once again, the otto's were worthless and we watched the 190s pick us off with easy, even in a tight formation. Muskyzz and Noflyz did a great job in planning the buff tactics and doing TAC moves did help a lot.

Good job!
Author:  Coolon [ Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: FRAME 2 CO AAR
<S> Bollok,

what Hawk said. with this added:
In the past buffs have been knocked down mostly from dedicated slashing attacks and the 190s locking in on stragglers. In this series it seems that every type of attack is very deadly. Many buffs were lost to pilot kills from head on attacks or slashing attacks where the planes just blew through the formation. Knocking these guys down from gunner position is not expected nor is it probable. These are the smart attacks. its the planes that come from behind and fly into the formation with every gun trained on him... These guys seemed to last for way too long, of course they were eventually destroyed but based on previous runs and my expectations the gunners (otto) are not very effective.

Don't take this as disparaging the LW at all, most of the attacks made were very smart and very terrifying.

After bomb drop we only had a few escorts with us when we ran into a big group of 190s... they just came in one or two at a time over and over again... There is not much any escort can do about this type of attack other than to try and keep them from setting up another run. a sweep out in front is probably the only way here..

anyone got any ideas? fighter guys?

All that comes to my mind is a simple track to target, like a freeway... where the fighters clear ahead of us on a known path. No matter where we go we will be on dar and they know where we are going. We might as well make it as easy for our escorts as possible. just my $.02
Author:  Gums [ Mon Dec 15, 2014 4:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: FRAME 2 CO AAR
Salute!

Agree with Cool.

We can't fool the LW on this series. Our tgt box is there for all the see, so we can't be real "tricky" unless we try a Operation Bolo or have our drone formation out in front of the humans.

So the only way is great close escort to prevent the re-attacks Cool pointed out. We can likely take our chances on their first pass, but a re-attack should not happen.

Cool and others have whined about otto, and I must agree.

Gums opines....
Author:  Sasquatch [ Mon Dec 15, 2014 4:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: FRAME 2 CO AAR
The LW was very crafty this frame as they decided to concentrate on the Mustangs, making them drop tanks as soon as possible. The bombers were hell bent for leather and we had a difficult time catching up to the rv with any kind of alt. This put us at the six of the buffs almost co-speed, not where you would want us. The scouts did a great job harassing us, and when the initial attack came thru, we were forced to engage, falling behind. Once we had to drop tanks, we knew that using only internal fuel, we wouldn't make it to Berlin and back.
In retrospect, continuing on without any escorts "In front at altitude " will be hazardous to the success of the mission. I would recommend delaying a few more minutes before penetrating Dar so they escorts can get into position to negate the harrasing 109s effectiveness.
Just my 2 cents
Author:  Coolon [ Mon Dec 15, 2014 4:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: FRAME 2 CO AAR
perhaps the buffs grabbing in a racetrack over England, allowing the fighters to position themselves then when the fighters are ready they give the go sign to the buffs and we go straight in... (we got tons of fuel to spare)

maybe a single fighter group grabbing ne slightly to give an impression early of a north sea run... but mostly just try to all get in position rather than feints.
Author:  MuskieZZ [ Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: FRAME 2 CO AAR
Coolon wrote:
perhaps the buffs grabbing in a racetrack over England, allowing the fighters to position themselves then when the fighters are ready they give the go sign to the buffs and we go straight in... (we got tons of fuel to spare)

maybe a single fighter group grabbing ne slightly to give an impression early of a north sea run... but mostly just try to all get in position rather than feints.


I don't know if my numbers were wrong but I tried a racetrack and found there is no time to do it. We can only afford 2 grids of vertical flying before heading east towards target unless we hit a westward target (maybe 39 or 40).

So, like we talked on TS last night, about the only option we have is to head straight south from 110 at T-30 to the 0,6 cross, head towards Leipzig maybe? At least then the fighters can up in front of the buffs.

BUT we still have the same problem, as soon as the lites drop tanks they have about 10min of escort then they have to RTB and there is no way they can fight with tanks.
Author:  Coolon [ Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: FRAME 2 CO AAR
Sounds like the only option to do what we really want would be an air start.....
Author:  bollok [ Mon Dec 15, 2014 6:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: FRAME 2 CO AAR
Despite a couple of gunner kills - It didn't seems like buff guns were the most terrifying prospect to fly into.
I chased a few cons HO through the BG with all guns blazing at us and didn't get pinged once
Luck maybe.

How many made it to drop from the original number?


WTG to the escorts who made it though to berlin and back.
Author:  Coolon [ Mon Dec 15, 2014 6:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: FRAME 2 CO AAR
perhaps 7 or 8 humans....2 or 3 AI

just from my thinking back, not from a photo or anything.
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