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| P51 FM http://squadselectseries.com/s3forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2048 |
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| Author: | rcflys [ Mon Jun 06, 2016 2:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | P51 FM |
the p51D needs some adjustments. the P-factor is screwed up. and the P51D flies like a pig and can't maintain level flight. |
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| Author: | zinhwk [ Mon Jun 06, 2016 5:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: P51 FM |
Or read this post and realize you are flying it wrong. http://forum.totalsims.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=14443 |
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| Author: | rcflys [ Mon Jun 06, 2016 9:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: P51 FM |
zinhwk wrote: Or read this post and realize you are flying it wrong. http://forum.totalsims.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=14443 well last night the i could barely keep it level due to rudder and aerolion issues and i trimmed it out, but still at issues even at 26K. with complete respect zinhwk the p51 was considered the hottest all performance fighter of WWII. and i have a book with the exact data of the aircraft. i've sent photos of the data to wildbill and he hasn't gotten back to me yet. |
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| Author: | zinhwk [ Tue Jun 07, 2016 2:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: P51 FM |
And that data is pretty close to spot on again and again and again as proven by Robert. Did you read the discussion? A LOT of different factors lead the P-51s "throne", but no it was not the undisputed best in all regimes when digging into numbers. The Aces admit as much in interviews. It was very good at what it did: long range escort. That does not give it the license to be made uber in every situation. Also fun fact. If you are basing performance on bombers, those FMs are hosed and misused and because of whining to Wild Bill, they continue to over perform for their size and weight and the FM team isn't allowed to touch it. Every fighter had trouble keeping up in the last S3. |
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| Author: | rcflys [ Tue Jun 07, 2016 1:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: P51 FM |
zinhwk wrote: And that data is pretty close to spot on again and again and again as proven by Robert. Did you read the discussion? A LOT of different factors lead the P-51s "throne", but no it was not the undisputed best in all regimes when digging into numbers. The Aces admit as much in interviews. It was very good at what it did: long range escort. That does not give it the license to be made uber in every situation. Also fun fact. If you are basing performance on bombers, those FMs are hosed and misused and because of whining to Wild Bill, they continue to over perform for their size and weight and the FM team isn't allowed to touch it. Every fighter had trouble keeping up in the last S3. I understand that and yes I did read the discussion. but in my opinion the p51D flew like a pig on sunday night S3. even in the vertical it kept stalling out on the left side. |
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| Author: | dawger [ Tue Jun 07, 2016 7:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: P51 FM |
rcflys wrote: zinhwk wrote: Or read this post and realize you are flying it wrong. http://forum.totalsims.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=14443 well last night the i could barely keep it level due to rudder and aerolion issues and i trimmed it out, but still at issues even at 26K. with complete respect zinhwk the p51 was considered the hottest all performance fighter of WWII. and i have a book with the exact data of the aircraft. i've sent photos of the data to wildbill and he hasn't gotten back to me yet. The hottest airplane in the known universe still requires a pilot. They dont fly themselves. At least not in 1944. I believe your P-51 was unmanned. |
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| Author: | rcflys [ Tue Jun 07, 2016 9:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: P51 FM |
no jackass i was flying on Sunday night in P51D. |
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| Author: | zinhwk [ Tue Jun 07, 2016 11:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: P51 FM |
rcflys wrote: zinhwk wrote: And that data is pretty close to spot on again and again and again as proven by Robert. Did you read the discussion? A LOT of different factors lead the P-51s "throne", but no it was not the undisputed best in all regimes when digging into numbers. The Aces admit as much in interviews. It was very good at what it did: long range escort. That does not give it the license to be made uber in every situation. Also fun fact. If you are basing performance on bombers, those FMs are hosed and misused and because of whining to Wild Bill, they continue to over perform for their size and weight and the FM team isn't allowed to touch it. Every fighter had trouble keeping up in the last S3. I understand that and yes I did read the discussion. but in my opinion the p51D flew like a pig on sunday night S3. even in the vertical it kept stalling out on the left side. I'm going to make assumptions based on your description since I wasn't there. A: P-51 prop rotates right (as seen from cockpit) therefore P-factor will induce a left yaw. So far, the plane is behaving correctly. It's okay I screwed up that definition too and was used to a previous backwards FM. B:Given the occurrence and your description of "vertical" I'm going to assume you mean climbing with a high Angle of Attack. Any airplane will slow to the point of stall in that situation. It will be worse if are not going fast enough before climbing. This will also negate air ram effects, hindering top end engine performance. Not to mention Mustang is a big heavy plane by comparison. Straight up is not its strong suit. Gary Olds remembers almost getting caught by a 109 climbing straight up in a P-51. Still the FM sounds like it is behaving as expected. C:Recorded performance numbers were based on a lighter, clean, frame (see previous link). So in the escort scenario you probably took a lot of fuel. By a lot, the mustang carries a lot of fuel weight fully loaded. Maybe you added drops at the beginning too? Maybe not since it is a smaller terrain than the typical ETO. In either case you will be heavy. You will be slower until you've burned off the extra weight. It will feel "piggish". Same holds true for any other FM. In the case of say a Yak, Lavochkin, 109 where the fuel capacity is small, full fuel won't "feel" quite as heavy. Opinions are like assholes, everyone has them. Giving your scenario description and lack of anyone else reporting sluggish P-51 performance after the S3. It is mine the P-51 is not the jackass performing piggish. |
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| Author: | Jugggo [ Tue Jun 07, 2016 11:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: P51 FM |
rcflys wrote: zinhwk wrote: Or read this post and realize you are flying it wrong. http://forum.totalsims.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=14443 well last night the i could barely keep it level due to rudder and aerolion issues and i trimmed it out, but still at issues even at 26K. with complete respect zinhwk the p51 was considered the hottest all performance fighter of WWII. and i have a book with the exact data of the aircraft. i've sent photos of the data to wildbill and he hasn't gotten back to me yet. Wow I'm not trying to be a dick here or anything BUT you sent an email to WLDBIL bypassing the FM team, just so you can complain about an FM that apparently you do not know how to fly. So I guess your on that train of "complain to WLDBIL" I guess you never read any of the posts that Robert wrote since he single handedly spent countless hours to make sure that P51D FM was as close to real life test data. I'm sure your book has lots of pretty pictures and colors in it. Maybe if you ask Robert nicely with respect he will share with you P51 test data comparing RL data to WB data. |
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| Author: | =dobs= [ Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: P51 FM |
From a bud, Greg "BA" Anders (http://heritageflight.org/about/biograp ... eg-anders/), who I had the pleasure of flying F-15Es with while he was active duty: Question was about torque/P-factor on Take off in the 51: Quote: You can't put in more than about 40" of manifold pressure without limiting out your rudder authority below about 35 KIAS. T/O in the Mustang is 2300 RPM (gives you @ 30"MP), release brakes, let her roll as you as you modulate power against rudder to keep her straight. Short runway, I will bring it in sort of quickly with 1/2 right rudder as my planning limit. You'll have right rudder in throughout the takeoff to counter P-factor, and right aileron in to counter torque of the 1,400 Lbs prop spinning up. Lifting the tail at about 45 KIAS also adds in a nose left component from gyroscopic effect. Stalls tend to break left due to gyroscopics. Left turning slow stall will really break left. That phenomenon has killed several folks in air shows. I'm not sure what people are expecting in the flight model regime of 30K plus in terms of performance, but I will tell you, with my experience, above 30 you are sluggish and having to watch falling off the power curve. Turns result in altitude loss, and the only thing you do well up there is dive... |
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