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Update FL2060: Adlertag http://squadselectseries.com/s3forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2877 |
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Author: | Juice= [ Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:13 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Update FL2060: Adlertag |
-- Thanks Robert and all for all the hard work. Juice |
Author: | Robert [ Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:09 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Update FL2060: Adlertag |
Thank you Juice= sir, I appreciate it . And thought I'd repost this here from the Warbirds main forum: Answer to players asking about the Bf 109's "compressing" at high speeds The decrease in control authority of the Bf 109 flightmodels is due to evidence that the controls quickly get heavier with increasing airspeed for this airplane. According to test pilot Rob Erdos it required him two hands to pull 3.5 G's at 280 mph in a Bf 109E. According to test pilot Mark Hanna he could pull 5+ G's with both hands at 311 mph. I've set the Bf 109 flightmodels to slowly start getting heavier controls from 180 mph IAS, and allow for roughly 5.5 G's at 320 mph IAS at neutral trims, and at 400 mph indicated one struggles to pull out of a dive unless using elevator trim. There are also reports that British pilots defended against Messerschmitts on their six by rolling over and dive to build up speed, then pull up sharply to make the trailing Bf 109's overshoot. On several occasions during Battle of Britan when this tactic was executed close to the ground, the attacking Bf 109's plunged nose first into the dirt, the German pilot being unable to pull out of the dive. This trait of the Bf 109 is why P-51D pilots regarded the Mustang as the better plane at high speeds, while avoiding to get into a slow knife fight with the 'Schmitts. Hopefully the new Bf 109 flightmodels in Warbirds have a performance as close to their real world handling as possible. "Pulling out of the dive, I discovered that the Bf-109ās elevators became distressingly heavy at high speed. I had read wartime accounts of Spitfire pilots taking Bf-109s into steep high-speed dives, knowing that the Bf-109 would be unable to pull out. This was a convincing demonstration, requiring a two-handed pull to achieve a 3.5 āgā recovery at 450 km/hour (280 mph)." - Test pilot Rob Erdos Answer to players asking about the Bf 109's turning ability I've also seen complaints from players that the new Bf 109's turn to well and even turn better than Spitfires. This ain't true from my tests and I've recently made actual 1v1 duel turning tests with the help of "Mirlox" and "Victim", and in both tests the Spitfires would outturn the Bf 109's in a sustained turn fight. With Mirlox starting on my six in a Bf 109E, it required my Spitfire Mk.I approximately four laps to get on his six in a left hand turn, which seems very true to real ww2 British turn tests between the fighters. Now from all sources I've read when remodeling the Bf 109 fighter series, and especially when reading modern test pilot statements about their turning ability, the Messerschmitts seem to have been great turn fighters, not flying trucks like some post-war propaganda has claimed and many people still believe. "I like the airplane, and with familiarity, I think it will give most of the Allied fighters I have flown a hard time- particularly in a close, hard-turning, low-speed dogfight. It will definitely out-maneuver a P-51 in this type of fight because the roll rate and slow-speed characteristics are much better. The Spitfire, on the other hand, is more of a problem for the 109, and I feel it is a superior close-in fighter. Having said that, the aircraft are sufficiently closely matched that pilot ability would probably be the deciding factor. At higher speeds, the P-51 is definitely superior, and provided the Mustang kept its energy up and refused to dogfight, it would be relatively safe against the 109." - Test pilot Mark Hanna Below is an interview with a real life pilot who claims that from his experience the Bf 109 can easily outturn a P-51, and it would be very close with a Spitfire in a turnfight. Cheers! /Robert |
Author: | jabo [ Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:36 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Update FL2060: Adlertag |
Its funny because all this means nothing. I can reference pilots that actually flew planes with the proper gas and the proper fear that refer to both aircraft as better. What is better? The 109 was a great aircraft but the Luftwaffe soon posted commands before BoB to not turn with Spitfires. Now that could have been sound tactics and not a reflection on the aircraft abilities. But turn rate and even climb became secondary to firepower and raw speed, speed especially at altitude. Operational altitude, in the West that was an entirely different thing than on the Russian Front or in the PTO. Straight historical data, thats what makes a FM. Erich Hartmann was untouchable in the 109, but that was him. In the early BoB we had the best well trained pilots from the RAF and Luftwaffe fighting each other. They were supreme professionals, the like that would not to be seen for several years afterwards. They got the most out of their aircraft and had the best training. The pilots made their observations and they were true, it just wasn't ever an even playing field to hold true. Especially after BoF and the early BoB sorties. The RAF and USAAF waned in 1941-42, then the twilight of the Luftwaffe occurred in 1944-45. You meet a 109 in 1945 that has a pilot with over 100 kills and you will find that plane is awesome. A green kid flying his 10 sortie, not so much. But as always the data is not complete or doesnt reference to game mechanics. Thats why we argue more than 73 years after. Keeps us young I think. |
Author: | nookyb [ Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:58 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Update FL2060: Adlertag |
I've also heard that the Spitfire gave more warning before a stall. A 109 gave practically none. So Spit pilots were more apt to 'push' their plane to the limit while only very experienced 109 pilots would...inexperienced pilots feared an unpredictable stall if they pushed too hard. So even though performance would be very similar, a pilot's confidence could also make the difference. |
Author: | Robert [ Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:58 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Update FL2060: Adlertag |
Wise words by both indeed. Considering both the Spitfire and especially the Hurricane could outturn the Bf 109E, while the 'Schmitt had a clear speed advantage over the Hurricane, it's quite logical that the Luftwaffe instructed their pilots to avoid turn fighting and use boom n zoom tactics instead. It doesn't mean that the Bf 109 must have turned like a P-47 Thunderbolt. It was still a great turn fighter, the British planes just turned a little better. If the British had been fighting Japanese Ki-27's and A6M Zeros instead of Messerschmitts, then the RAF would also have instructed their Spitfire pilots to use their superior speed and avoid turn fights. <S> /Robert |
Author: | jabo [ Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:46 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Update FL2060: Adlertag |
It gets even better. I remember reading that it was after Malans trouncing of Molders in his Spitfire that the Luftwaffe issued the order not to turn fight with the RAF fighters. Maybe a bit Hollywood but I will have to dig it out. |
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