S3 Series

Home Page FAQ Team Search
  Register
Login 
View unanswered posts View active topics  

Delete all board cookies

All times are UTC




New Topic Post Reply  [ 7 posts ] 
  Print view
Previous topic | Next topic 
Author Message
Offline 
 Post subject: Update FL2060: Adlertag
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:06 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:09 pm
Posts: 620
Image


The update is now live!
---== UPDATE FL2060: ADLERTAG ==---
By: Robert & Grumpy
All made possible by: Bcamel (creator of the program used to model the airplanes), and Idunno (who has shared a vast amount of aerodynamical knowledge)

--= Bf 109 series =--
After months of remodeling and getting this series as close to historical performance as possible, we are happy to finally announce the full rehaul of the whole Messerchmitt Bf 109 series. See further down for details.

--= Yakovlevs =--
Slight roll rate improvement for the Yak-9D, Yak-3 and Yak-9U.

--= Lavochkins =--
Slight wing efficiency reduction fix due to data found that leading edge slats increases induced drag when extended. This fix affects all the La5's and La7's.

--= Focke Wulfs =--
The Fw 190A-8, F-8 and D-9 have had their Bst2 renamed from "MW50 injection" to "MW50 injektion" with correct German spelling.

--= Macchis =--
The C.202's and C.205 have had minor fixes in dragco and engine setup from better data found while remodeling the Bf 109 series.


--== THE BF 109 MESSERSCHMITT SERIES FULL REHAUL ==--
There were no other aces in ww2 with as many kills as the German Bf 109 pilots. The Messerschmitts were used at all fronts by the Germans and even scored a very impressive tally in Finnish hands against the Russians. There has been a lot of propaganda after the war where Allied countries claimed their fighters were far superior to their German adversaries, but make no mistake, the Bf 109 is a very potent fighter that has several outstanding traits, while also having some apparent drawbacks. The Messerschmitt is a small lightweight fighter and can definitely give a Spitfire a good run for the money in a slow speed turnfight and is very maneuverable below 300 mph. Especially the F's and K's hold a great sustained turn rate due to their high power/weight ratio, but even E's and G's are quite decent. The small wing area is fairly well counteracted by the leading edge slats, allowing this fighter a high max AoA and surprisingly low stall speed for it's wingloading. While the normal Bf 109's are a bit lightly armed, the G-6/RVI and K-4/RIV versions pack a heavy punch with their added gondola cannons in exchange for a decrease in speed, climb-, turn- and roll rate. The Messerscmitts have a major Akilles heel in that their elevator, rudder and aileron controls quickly become heavier with increasing airspeed. As such a Bf 109 can turn with a Spitfire below 250 mph IAS but is fairly equal to a P-51D above 300 mph IAS, and above 400 mph IAS a P-51D can easily get on the Bf 109's six. There are several accounts of German Bf 109 pilots crashing when trying to follow a British fighter in a low altitude dive due to inability of pulling out of the dive, and a known tactic used by British pilots was to roll over, dive and then pull out in order to evade a Bf 109 on their six. A Bf 109 pilot in Warbirds will do well to be ready with the elevator trim to get out of a dive or to tighten the turn in high speed dogfights. Heavier fighters will do well to keep their speed high when fighting a 'Schmitt. A Warbirds player probably needs a bit of a learning curve to get skilled in this German fighter, but the Messerschmitts are definitiely very competitive fighters that have the ability to bring down any opposition, especially with an Experten in the cockpit who knows how to manage his Bf 109's strengths and weaknesses.

--= Bf 109E-1 =--
The E-1 is lightly armed with 4x 7.92 mm MG's and has a max output of 1134 hp at 4100 ft with it's DB 601 engine. The 1.40 ata boost can be used for 1 min stints with a 2 min cooldown, while 1.30 ata can be used for 5 minutes.

--= Bf 109E-3 =--
The E-3 has an improved DB 601 engine with a better high altitude performance, and replaces the wing 7.92 mm MG's with 20 mm MG/FF cannons.

--= Bf 109E-4 =--
This version is very similar to the Bf 109E-3, but has slightly better MG/FF/M cannons instead of the MG/FF cannons of the E-3.

--= Bf 109E-4 Aa =--
The best known Bf 109E version, the E-4 Aa has the DB 601Aa engine which can produce 1212 hp at 4000 ft for 1 minute stints. There are several 1939-1940 era fighters that can turn tighter than the 109E's, but the 'Schmitts can usually outrun these opponents. Still, if on the six of a Spitfire, the Bf 109E's can keep inside it's turn for several laps. The Hurricane outturns the Bf 109E's though.

--= Bf 109F-1 =--
The F's might be the pinnacle of the Messerchmitt series and sees the wing cannons removed for a single nose cannon. The Bf 109F's and future 109's have redesigned wings with a better wing efficiency and lower drag than the E's, and can also bring a droptank. The F-1 benefits from a good power/weight ratio with the DB 601N engine capable of producing 1243 hp at 6900 ft for 5 minute stints.

--= Bf 109F-2 =--
Very similar to the F-1, but with the 20 mm cannon replaced with a 15 mm MG/151/15 cannon and 200 rounds instead of 60 rounds.

--= Bf 109F-4 =--
The best F version equipped with the even further improved DB 601E engine. It also has a 20 mm MG/151/20 cannon with 200 rounds instead of the 15 mm cannon of the F-2. The F-4 has great top speed for it's time and can turn with most 1941 era fighters at low speeds.

--= Bf 109G-2 =--
The G-2 fields the DB 605A-1 engine which has a better high alt performance than the DB 601 engine. Problems with engine reliability resulted in the G-2 being restricted to 1.30 ata though. As such it's has a better top speed above 20000 ft than the F-4, but is generally a bit more cumbersome at lower alts than the F's.

--= Bf 109G-6 =--
The G-6 has the DB 605A-1 engine like the G-2, but is cleared for use of 1.42 ata with a max output of 1529 hp at 6800 ft at 1 minute stints. It has improved armament with 2x 13 mm MG's replacing the 7.92 MG's and packs a better punch. It's a bit heavier than the F's though and slightly worse in turn fight at low alts, but is a good high alt performer.

--= Bf 109G-6/RVI =--
This is a G-6 with added gondola cannons in the wings, packing a heavy punch and a is great tool against bombers. This added firepower comes at the expense of a ~5 mph slower top speed and decreased climb-, turn- and roll rate due to the added 474 lb weight of the wing cannons.

--= Bf 109G-14 ASM =--
An improvement to the G-series, the G-14 ASM has an engine tooled for high alt performance, and more importantly can use the MW50 methanol/water injection. This allows a markedly increase in max power output and it can keep it's WEP for 10 minutes before the engine starts to overheat (total MW50 capacity is 20 minutes). This Bf 109 version is a serious threat to any opposing fighter of it's era.

--= Bf 109K-4 =--
This is the ultimate version of the Bf 109 series. An added feature is the choice of using the heavy 30 mm MK/108 cannon instead of the standard 20 mm cannon. The DB 605DC engine can produce 1988 hp at 1400 ft with MW50 injection and C3 fuel, which gives the K-4 a power/weight ratio even greater than the Spitfire XIV, and can definitely match the Spit XIV in a sustained low n' slow turn fight. The top speed matches any late war fighter below 20000 ft and if the German pilots of ww2 hadn't been constantly outnumbered 1v5 or even 1v10 in the era of the K-4, this version would probably have made a much better tally for itself. The Akilles heel of the Messerchmitts is the heavy high speed handling though, and in the 1944-1945 era where speeds are much higher than in the earlier years of ww2, this is an even more significant drawback for the K-4 pilot that often will need to try to lure the often heavier enemy fighters into a slow speed dogfight.

--= Bf 109K-4/RIV =--
Like the G-6/RVI, The K-4/RIV has added firepower from it's gondola wing cannons at the expense of top speed and agility.


SUSTAINED TURN RATE AT SEA LEVEL, NO FLAPS


Image Image

Image Image


TOP SPEEDS

Image Image

Image Image



<S>!
/Robert


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Offline 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:13 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2013 2:27 am
Posts: 394
--
Thanks Robert and all for all the hard work.

Juice


352nd Fighter Group C.O. (V) - "The Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney"
487th Fighter Squadron (V)-HO
486th Fighter Squadron (V)-PZ
328th Fighter Squadron (V)-PE
We have the whips - KILL THEM ALL


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Offline 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:09 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:09 pm
Posts: 620
Thank you Juice= sir, I appreciate it :). And thought I'd repost this here from the Warbirds main forum:

Answer to players asking about the Bf 109's "compressing" at high speeds
The decrease in control authority of the Bf 109 flightmodels is due to evidence that the controls quickly get heavier with increasing airspeed for this airplane. According to test pilot Rob Erdos it required him two hands to pull 3.5 G's at 280 mph in a Bf 109E. According to test pilot Mark Hanna he could pull 5+ G's with both hands at 311 mph. I've set the Bf 109 flightmodels to slowly start getting heavier controls from 180 mph IAS, and allow for roughly 5.5 G's at 320 mph IAS at neutral trims, and at 400 mph indicated one struggles to pull out of a dive unless using elevator trim. There are also reports that British pilots defended against Messerschmitts on their six by rolling over and dive to build up speed, then pull up sharply to make the trailing Bf 109's overshoot. On several occasions during Battle of Britan when this tactic was executed close to the ground, the attacking Bf 109's plunged nose first into the dirt, the German pilot being unable to pull out of the dive. This trait of the Bf 109 is why P-51D pilots regarded the Mustang as the better plane at high speeds, while avoiding to get into a slow knife fight with the 'Schmitts. Hopefully the new Bf 109 flightmodels in Warbirds have a performance as close to their real world handling as possible.

"Pulling out of the dive, I discovered that the Bf-109ā€™s elevators became distressingly heavy at high speed. I had read wartime accounts of Spitfire pilots taking Bf-109s into steep high-speed dives, knowing that the Bf-109 would be unable to pull out. This was a convincing demonstration, requiring a two-handed pull to achieve a 3.5 ā€˜gā€™ recovery at 450 km/hour (280 mph)." - Test pilot Rob Erdos


Answer to players asking about the Bf 109's turning ability
I've also seen complaints from players that the new Bf 109's turn to well and even turn better than Spitfires. This ain't true from my tests and I've recently made actual 1v1 duel turning tests with the help of "Mirlox" and "Victim", and in both tests the Spitfires would outturn the Bf 109's in a sustained turn fight. With Mirlox starting on my six in a Bf 109E, it required my Spitfire Mk.I approximately four laps to get on his six in a left hand turn, which seems very true to real ww2 British turn tests between the fighters. Now from all sources I've read when remodeling the Bf 109 fighter series, and especially when reading modern test pilot statements about their turning ability, the Messerschmitts seem to have been great turn fighters, not flying trucks like some post-war propaganda has claimed and many people still believe.

"I like the airplane, and with familiarity, I think it will give most of the Allied fighters I have flown a hard time- particularly in a close, hard-turning, low-speed dogfight. It will definitely out-maneuver a P-51 in this type of fight because the roll rate and slow-speed characteristics are much better. The Spitfire, on the other hand, is more of a problem for the 109, and I feel it is a superior close-in fighter. Having said that, the aircraft are sufficiently closely matched that pilot ability would probably be the deciding factor. At higher speeds, the P-51 is definitely superior, and provided the Mustang kept its energy up and refused to dogfight, it would be relatively safe against the 109."
- Test pilot Mark Hanna


Below is an interview with a real life pilot who claims that from his experience the Bf 109 can easily outturn a P-51, and it would be very close with a Spitfire in a turnfight.




Cheers!
/Robert


Last edited by Robert on Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Offline 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:36 am 
Site Admin

Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:38 am
Posts: 1470
Its funny because all this means nothing. I can reference pilots that actually flew planes with the proper gas and the proper fear that refer to both aircraft as better. What is better? The 109 was a great aircraft but the Luftwaffe soon posted commands before BoB to not turn with Spitfires. Now that could have been sound tactics and not a reflection on the aircraft abilities. But turn rate and even climb became secondary to firepower and raw speed, speed especially at altitude. Operational altitude, in the West that was an entirely different thing than on the Russian Front or in the PTO. Straight historical data, thats what makes a FM. Erich Hartmann was untouchable in the 109, but that was him. In the early BoB we had the best well trained pilots from the RAF and Luftwaffe fighting each other. They were supreme professionals, the like that would not to be seen for several years afterwards. They got the most out of their aircraft and had the best training. The pilots made their observations and they were true, it just wasn't ever an even playing field to hold true. Especially after BoF and the early BoB sorties. The RAF and USAAF waned in 1941-42, then the twilight of the Luftwaffe occurred in 1944-45. You meet a 109 in 1945 that has a pilot with over 100 kills and you will find that plane is awesome. A green kid flying his 10 sortie, not so much. But as always the data is not complete or doesnt reference to game mechanics. Thats why we argue more than 73 years after. Keeps us young I think.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Offline 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:58 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:36 pm
Posts: 602
Location: Buffalo, NY
I've also heard that the Spitfire gave more warning before a stall. A 109 gave practically none. So Spit pilots were more apt to 'push' their plane to the limit while only very experienced 109 pilots would...inexperienced pilots feared an unpredictable stall if they pushed too hard. So even though performance would be very similar, a pilot's confidence could also make the difference.


NOOKYB 4th FG
4th But First!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Offline 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:58 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:09 pm
Posts: 620
Wise words by both indeed. Considering both the Spitfire and especially the Hurricane could outturn the Bf 109E, while the 'Schmitt had a clear speed advantage over the Hurricane, it's quite logical that the Luftwaffe instructed their pilots to avoid turn fighting and use boom n zoom tactics instead. It doesn't mean that the Bf 109 must have turned like a P-47 Thunderbolt. It was still a great turn fighter, the British planes just turned a little better. If the British had been fighting Japanese Ki-27's and A6M Zeros instead of Messerschmitts, then the RAF would also have instructed their Spitfire pilots to use their superior speed and avoid turn fights.


<S>
/Robert


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Offline 
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:46 am 
Site Admin

Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:38 am
Posts: 1470
It gets even better. I remember reading that it was after Malans trouncing of Molders in his Spitfire that the Luftwaffe issued the order not to turn fight with the RAF fighters. Maybe a bit Hollywood but I will have to dig it out.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Search for:
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
New Topic Post Reply  [ 7 posts ] 

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 70 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum
Jump to:  

Powered by The S-3.